In this episode, I interviewed Kathryn Schneider, a Claverack native, who has spent decades studying the behavior, ecology, and distribution of birds. An award-winning author, teacher, and conservationist, she is a past president of the New York State Ornithological Association. We discuss her book Birding the Hudson Valley, a thorough guidebook that provides all the knowledge you need to start birding including where to go, what to bring, and how to join the birders community, and more. Her insights give us a deeper understanding of the natural landscapes that are home to the birds we see, and encourage us to support positive changes in conservation work.
This interview broadcasted on August 24th 2024 at Wave Farm's WGXC 90.7FM in upper hudson valley.
Interview transcript
Kathryn Schneider: My name is Kathryn Schneider. I'm retired now, but I've spent most of my career doing things like teaching college courses. I also work for conservation organizations and for state and federal government on a lot of different conservation projects. I'm the author of a book, and right now I co-chair the steering committee for the New York State Breeding Bird Atlas.
Mayuko Fujino: I specifically wanted to ask you about Birding the Hudson Valley, the book you authored, a guide to birds and bird watching in the Hudson Valley. I'm going to introduce the book a little bit here. “Although an estimated 400,000 Hudson Valley residents feed, observe, or photograph birds, the vast majority of New Yorkers enjoy their bird watching activities, mostly around the home.” And your book encourages those people to expand their horizons, going outside beyond their backyard, and do more birding out there. So what led you to that idea? How did you come to that observation?
KS: People are basically interested in birds. They come to bird talks, they watch PBS. They have bird feeders for the most part. But if you walk around most neighborhoods, and I spend a lot of time doing that kind of thing when I'm bird watching, you notice that there are a lot of empty bird feeders, and you kind of have to ask, why? Why don't they keep their feeders full? I think that it's partly because they get tired. Maybe they get tired of filling the feeders. But I also think that to some extent, they get tired of seeing the same birds over and over again. And what you have to realize is that at a bird feeder, you're only going to see a certain number of birds. Not all birds come to bird feeders. Generally, things like bald eagles, for example, which are fairly common in the Hudson Valley, don't come to bird feeders. They don't see much new is what I'm saying.
I was aware of this study that was done in 2011. I was working in state government at the time, and there was a survey of fishing, hunting and wildlife associated recreation that was done by the Fish and Wildlife Service. And they do it every five years. And basically, they do this study to justify funding for state and federal agencies. So they needed to show that bird watching and wildlife watching and hunting and fishing and those sorts of things actually generated revenue and deserved to be funded by taxpayer dollars. In that study, there's a great deal of information about where people do their wildlife observation. It's a national study, but you can extrapolate the numbers down to New York state and Hudson Valley and shows that about 88% of the bird watching that's done is done from people's homes or on their own property, and about 38% is done away from home. Those numbers don't add up to 100% because some of the people that watch birds at the feeders also watch birds away from home. But that just told me that people were not getting out there and becoming real birders. They were just bird watchers in their backyards.
I think there's an important difference between being a bird watcher and being a birder. Bird watchers are basically less serious birders. I think we all start out a lot of the time at bird feeders. And in fact, when I taught ornithology in college, we would start in January and I would always start my class, I give them a bird feeder and say, set up this bird feeder and see what you see. It's a very good introduction to becoming a birder.
But after a while, you're not going to see anything new. So we would hope that the people that are watching birds at a bird feeder are at least writing down what they see, trying to identify what they see, maybe using binoculars, but they're not going to see the birds that they would see if they left their feeder and visited other habitats and other places. So birders, unlike bird watchers, actually go out looking for particular birds. They're a bit more serious. Being a birder is really a different animal than a bird watcher in a lot of ways. They go to particular places called hot spots and travel to see birds, whereas, when you're just a bird watcher, you see them while you're doing your gardening, for example, or sitting drinking hot cocoa in the winter at your kitchen table. But birders tend to target species that they want to see. They're really interested in keeping data and building bird lists and seeing new and different birds.
So I wanted to help people make the transition from being a bird watcher that basically did all their bird watching in their backyard or very close to home, and the person that actually goes out and observes birds at different places and different habitats with targeted species in mind.
MF: So that's where you get this very specific number of 400,000 residents.
KS: Yeah. Well, you can figure out how many of those people are in New York state and how many people live in the Hudson Valley and use those percentages to figure out how many of them are actually seeing birds in the Hudson Valley.
MF: I think writing beginner friendly guidance can be challenging. It's not always easy for an experienced person to really imagine what people don't know or what they are interested in learning. But your book covers every basic thing a beginner needs to know with great clarity: where to go, how to find binoculars, ethics around birding and sharing sightings.
KS: My insights as to what was keeping people from going birding come partly from the students that I taught at Hudson Valley Community College. Students are kind of a captive audience, but for them one of the most difficult things was getting up early. Well, they didn't have any choice in my class because it was an 8 am class, so they had to get up early. I also got some insights from leading field trips and giving talks and the kinds of questions I was always asked over and over again, like what binoculars do I need for birding? My students would come to class with opera glasses, and opera glasses really don't cut it for bird watching. So I had a stash of garage sale binoculars that I would distribute to them a lot of the time. What they needed to know is that you need a particular kind of binoculars for bird watching. And you don't have to spend a lot of money. You can get them used, you can get them at yard sales. You just need to have ones that have enough magnification and are appropriate for that kind of observation, because they make binoculars for lots of different things, you know, for operas and for sporting events or for navigating on the ocean and things like that.
I would be asked questions about how can I see more birds, especially in winter, they would ask questions about their bird feeders. If you only have one kind of bird feeder, you're likely only going to get a certain suite of birds. But if you have different kinds of bird feeders with different kinds of food, and you offer the food in different situations, some on the ground, some on a platform, some in a tube feeder, you can get a better diversity of birds. And they would also ask questions about how to control squirrels. I mean, you don't have to shoot the squirrels. I want to save the squirrels. I wanted to put that kind of advice in the book.
I think another barrier that keeps people from going out birding away from home is that nature is scary to some people. People that have moved here from New York City haven't been exposed to nature. There's things like ticks and poison ivy and snakes, and you can get lost. So I think it was important to be upfront about the fact that nature deserves respect. But these are not good reasons for not going birding.
I also think that people are a little shy. I mean, everything I've learned about birds, I've learned from other people. I think that's a very important part of learning to become a birder. So learning to connect with other birders is really important, especially ones that know more than you, because that's where you'll find a mentor or a birding buddy that can teach you things that you don't already know. So there's stuff in the book about the different bird clubs that are in the Hudson Valley and how bird clubs are really, really welcoming groups and how they really love what they are doing and want to teach people about birds. So there's a little bit about how not to make a fool of yourself on your first birding trip in there. But in general, birders are really welcoming and I think it's really important for new bird watchers who want to become birders to connect with other birders who know more than they do. I mean, even if they only tell you on a field trip where the nearest bathroom is, that's valuable information, you know, and then you can go on to the higher levels of birding. The people that lead bird walks a lot of the time can identify birds by their vocalizations. So I would get a lot of questions about how do I learn how to identify birds by song. There are that I put a fair amount of that information in the book.
MF: So that gave you the clarity. I was really impressed by how thorough it was. And it's shocking how much beginners don't know. Like, I went on without binoculars for many years. I can't believe I didn't get one. But that's how much it doesn't occur to you if you don't know.
KS: People think you have to spend a lot of money to get binoculars, and you don't. There are an amazing number of binoculars at garage sales because grandma who was a bird watcher and grandma died. Next generation's maybe not doing birding. So I pick up binoculars at garage sales all the time. There's places like eBay, for example, where you can get binoculars. You just have to know what you're looking for. You have to make sure you get the right magnification and something that's in decent shape. But you don't have to spend a lot of money. Of course, most of us eventually do. We graduate to our next binoculars and we get to be 40. You say, I need my penultimate pair of binoculars for my next 40 years of birding. So that's when you start spending money. But you can start out with a very basic pair of binoculars and see birds just fine.
MF: Some people gear shame you sometimes.
KS: Yeah. Yeah. And that's silly. It's silly because as long as you can see the birds (it’s fine.) I would, when I see someone with a pair of opera glasses on a field trip, I kind of put them on my mental list of, I got to find this person another set of binoculars. But they have to learn to use the binoculars that they have. A lot of people try and scan with binoculars, and really, if you want to use binoculars properly, you have to see the bird first with your eyes and then put the binoculars up and focus. And a lot of people don't realize that. So learning to use the binoculars, you can even learn to use binoculars at a bird feeder fairly easily. We call it getting on the bird. And getting on the bird is a real talent. It takes some practice.
MF: I guess that's why, I was talking about how I would get motion sickness from looking into binoculars. And that's when I was told, that, oh, you're not using good binoculars, that's not high end or whatever. I can't afford high end.
KS: You don't need high end.
MF: So, yeah, it's really encouraging to have this information.
KS: Good.
MF: What impact would you wish this book to have in the long term? What positive changes would you like to see in the world from getting more people transitioning into birders from bird watchers?
KS: I think if people get away from home and start to really appreciate birds, see lots of different kinds of birds and different habitats, they will come to love birds. And when you love birds, you want to learn more about them and you want to understand their needs. To me, that's what's important. That's what I hope, that people will not just learn to identify birds, they will learn to understand what birds need. And to me, that translates into protection of the environment. I'm basically a conservationist at heart. So if you love birds and you want to keep seeing them, you should be interested in protecting the environment. That's what I hope this book will do.
MF: Maybe more people will join citizen science projects.
KS: I hope so, too.
MF: I think in your lecture, you were talking about a quote...
KS: Quote of Baba Dioum.
MF: Yes.
KS: He says, in the end we will - I can't remember the whole quote off the top of my head, but he says that in the end, we will only protect what we understand and love. And so that's what I'm hoping, that people will come to understand more what birds need. There are an awful lot of people that get hung up on the idea of ticking off birds and keeping lists and things like that and never really learn the biology of birds. I think that if you watch birds long enough and you hang out with birders, you will learn more about bird biology. I mean, there are people that don't understand that birds migrate. There are people that don't understand that the breeding requirements of birds and that food is critically important to birds. So I'm hoping that if you see birds most often at places where they're feeding, people will start to realize that they really shouldn't cut down that poison ivy because it's important food for the birds.
MF: I thought about that quote after I heard it in your lecture. It's almost a little bit harsh in some way. Maybe “harsh” is not the right word, but, like, people throw out the word “love” so easily, especially in this country. But that (quote) states that, no, you can't love something if you don't know it. And you would only know it if you're being taught or if you are willing to learn. Like, love takes some work.. you can't just like, “I love hot dogs.”
KS: No, no. Right.
MF: But that “work” is not like an obligation. You can have so much fun and the joy of improving yourself.
KS: Well, birds give us a lot of enjoyment. Can you imagine a world without birds? You know, I just can't imagine a world without birds. And I think we take them for granted. We take for granted a lot of things that are really important to us. But if you become familiar with them and learn about them, I think that you will come to appreciate what they need and what's important to them.
MF: Have you always been a birder since you were little?
KS: My mom was a birder, and I can remember us looking at a pileated woodpecker in the backyard. She was not a professional birder at all, but we were trying to decide if it was an ivory billed woodpecker* or a pileated woodpecker.
*On September 30, 2021, the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service declared it to be extinct.
And, of course, once you get out the book and you look at the range maps, we came to the conclusion that it was a pileated woodpecker. But I came about my appreciation of birds as a kid because my dad was from the Adirondacks, and my mother kind of adopted the Adirondacks as a place for us to observe nature. We have four kids in my family. I think we drove her crazy. She would kick us outside most of the time. So I was part of an outdoorsy family. You know, we grew up climbing mountains and camping and that sort of stuff. We've always had bird feeders and bird identification guides around the house when I was growing up. But it wasn't until I went to college that I realized, gee, maybe you really could make a living studying birds.
MF: Which is really cool.
KS: Yeah. I took courses at Cornell and animal behavior and ornithology, and that was when I realized that you could actually have a career studying birds.
MF: This pilated woodpecker incident was at your Virginia home, or... ?
KS: Oh, no. When I was a kid growing up in Claverack in the Hudson Valley.
MF: Claverack. That's also where Bill Cook is from.
(Dr. William Cook, the professor Emeritus of ornithology and curator of the Columbia-Greene Community College Natural History Museum)
KS: Yep.
MF: Were you in the same class?
KS: Not the same class, but we grew up in the same town in Claverack, and I knew Bill Cook when he was a little kid. It's interesting. He went to the same church I went to.
MF: So the town of Claverack produced two ornithologists.
KS: That's right.
MF: And you both taught at Columbia-Greene Community College?
KS: No, he taught at Columbia Green. I taught at Hudson Valley Community College and I also taught at the University of Richmond. But, yeah, he's about ten years older than me. He went off to the University of Michigan and studied birds out there and then came back to the Hudson Valley. So I got there somewhat different route, I went to Cornell and then got a PhD at Princeton. I lived in Virginia for a while and then came back to the Hudson Valley.
MF: Well, Claverack can be really proud, in this world of birders.
Okay, so you're going to lead the walk, the bird walk at Nutten Hook in September.
KS: Right.
MF: What can participants expect to possibly see?
KS: Well, Nutten Hook is a really nice site. It's on the Hudson river, and then it has fields and woods, so it has a variety of habitats. But because it's on the Hudson river and we're going at pretty much the peak of fall migration in late September, we can be sure we'll see (bald) eagles. We usually get fish crows and osprey. I'm hoping we'll get great egrets, which are being seen on the river a lot now, I don't know if they'll hang around that long, but there should be things like cormorants and gulls and all the usual river birds. And then, because migration's going on and it’s not so late that there won't be warblers, there still should be some warblers hanging around. Kinglets should be coming through and of course, some thrushes. I looked at my list from last year and there was a Swainson's thrush on it, which was pretty good. And it's late enough to get some of the later migrants, things like some of the sparrows. So in late September, you can see the first white throated sparrows. I had a white crown sparrow in late September there. And there would be a raptors, like broad-wing(ed hawk)s and, you know, of course, red-tailed hawk and red-shouldered hawk. So the early sparrow migrants are things you would expect, and some raptor migration as well.
MF: So sparrows migrating, and they're going to stay here over the winter?
KS: Some of them come for the winter, yeah.
MF: But not egrets.
KS: Egrets are not very common here at all normally. And every fall we seem to get an influx of them and I think it's post breeding dispersal. Egrets are colonial water birds, and they breed in big colonies, especially in places like Long island and the lower Hudson. There's big colonies down there, and I think the babies get kicked out and they start exploring the river and things like that. So we always see an influx of great egrets in the fall.
MF: And they travel south. How far?
KS: Oh, I don't know exactly, but you certainly see great egrets in Florida. They are not generally migratory. Even the other members of that family, great blue herons, for example, we see them about around here in winter once in a while, they just need open water. When the water freezes, they leave, but they don't go very far. Egrets generally are not considered migratory. They'll do short distance movements, basically, based on the availability of food.
MF: I see, okay, so that's what people can expect to see at Nutten Hook.
Thank you very much.
KS: You're welcome.
Bird-inspired Music of the Month
Every Bird by the Hudson Valley artist David Garland, the musical score for the film Larksong by Nick Jordan and Jacob Cartwright (Folklore Tapes, UK), and The Birds by Guy Richardson (AEMC Records, Netherlands.)
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